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     I was out in the garage doing the final sanding of the Zpoxy on #5 tonite. As this is the final chance you get to fix the inevitable little dings, scratches, and dents before spraying I noticed three unfixable "glitches". They're so small the new owner (nor anyone else) will probably never notice them. But, I know they're there. The thoughts popped into my thick skull, "I wonder if I will ever build a perfect one?". " I wonder if anyone has ever built what they consider to be a perfect one?"
     Well senior members? have you ever?. Has some of the challenge been lost? Is building less fun now? Inquiring minds want to know......

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The Biggest Little City, Nevada
www.hammondguitars.com
I love building guitars!

Good question Mike, I would like to know the answer to this too.

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My Facebook Guitar Page

"There's really no wrong way, as long as the results are what's desired." Charles Fox

"We have to constantly remind ourselves what we're doing....No Luthier is putting a man on the moon!" Harry Fleishman

"Generosity is always different in the eye of the person who didn't receive anything, but who wanted some." Waddy Thomson

No, and if I ever did I'd stop building. Anyway one person's perfect guitar would be another's dog, as far as sound goes. And, I like different styles of playing so I need at least 4 'perfect' ones. Oh, and three perfect lutes and a couple of perfect classicals, then of course I'd need a 'perfect' guitar-bazouki, and a 'perfect'......

Don't you think it would be a bit arrogant to claim perfection?

Why didn't I just stop with "No"?

Colin


Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

I like William Cumpiano's views on perfection.
"Perfection: phooey! Perfection is the enemy of the Good. I've seen too many indulging this illusion, get stuck fine-sanding each kerfing chip and then crash-burning out of the craft."

Wade

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Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

While I alway strive for perfection, I know for a fact that I'll never get there. But, for me anyway, I have to start every guitar with the attitude of "this one is going to be perfect" and keep reminding myself of that throughout the build. Otherwise, I think I'd let mistakes go and they would pile up and the build wouldn't even be good.
It's a good challenge to strive for perfection. I'm really hard on myself and if I can simply say, "I'm happy with this one", I think that's a pretty good guitar.

in your own work. That's the trend I notice.
That in a sense makes one strive for perfection, but actually hit it? Is there really such thing?



Craig L.

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www.handcraftinlay.com

Perfect, no such thing.
Since the number system is infinite.
We can only build to a measured tolerance.
As close as we can get is near flawless.
At least this is what we where taught when I was
training to be a machinist.

Tom

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http://www.moriciguitar.com

    I've never built a perfect instrument, but i've sure liked alot of the ones
that I've built. I've also never seen what I would consider a perfect
instrument from the shop of any other builder.....from the big houses to
all of the solo shops. I say this inspite of the fact that some builders
would have us all believe that they are capable of perfection on a
consistent basis....these are guys whose guitars i've seen and played and
have been surprized at the number of shortcomings in their construction
from the assembly process to the very final finish steps and set up
parameters. The guitars will always reveal the true ability of the builder in
spite of what they say.


    I've loved guitars that i've played from the largest shops in the world
and could have easily compiled a long list of shortcomings in others. The
same is true of the guitars that I've played from small shops and solo
luthiers....I've loved alot and didn't like others at all.

     The convenient difference with my own guitars is that I can make a list
of things I'm really not satisfied with and then work my down that list
correcting each one to my satisfaction.

     Even with all of the details on a guitars meeting my expectations and
requirements, it never means perfection, but only as close as i'm able to
coax that particular set of components.

    I doubt you'll find a single builder that will claim they've achieved
perfection....even one time.....and if you do, we'll know he's either not
being completely honest or thinks way too much of himself and his skills.

    It's not hard to flip a guitar around from even the most highly touted
builders and pick out some small detail that could have been made better
with a little more attention, especially for another builder with a trained
eye for guitar construction. I've done it with guitars that had cost their
customers more than $20k and it took only a few seconds, but I'd never
point those small flaws out to their owners out of respect for them and
their investment as well as to the builder who created the guitar.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega GuitarsKevin Gallagher39044.6581365741

[QUOTE=Kevin Gallagher]     
I'd never point those small flaws out to their owners out of respect for them and
their investment as well as to the builder who created the guitar.
[/QUOTE]

Kevin,

As Paul Simon so eloquently wrote (and sang):

"One mans' ceiling is another mans' flaw"

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Dave White
De Faoite Stringed Instruments
". . . the one thing a machine just can't do is give you character and personalities and sometimes that comes with flaws, but it always comes with humanity" Monty Don talking about hand weaving, "Mastercrafts", Weaving, BBC March 2010

I'm so far from it, I don't think I could achieve it in my lifetime. Wouldn't want to either. If you did build a perfect guitar, what would you do next? The closest I ever hope for in seeking perfection is, "I built the best one I could" and hope I can say the same of the next one.

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now known around here as Pat Foster
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http://www.patfosterguitars.com

[QUOTE=Wade S.] I like William Cumpiano's views on perfection.
"Perfection: phooey! Perfection is the enemy of the Good. I've seen too many indulging this illusion, get stuck fine-sanding each kerfing chip and then crash-burning out of the craft."

Wade[/QUOTE]

You're not supposed to fine sand your kerfing? I suppose next you'll tell me I don't need to pore fill or French Polish the kerfing either.    

I once made a guitar that was perfectly awful. Does that count?

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

I don't worry about perfection... I am striving for excellent Luthiery can reach a point where perfection becomes a detriment.... We might produce 'perfect' guitars, but nobody would want to pay for them. The attention to detail is better spent on those things we all agree count - sound, playability, etc.

And of course you waould have to start with perfect wood - not easy to find    drfuzz39044.8838888889

Shucks, I been building a perfect one every night for ages, but when I wake up, its gone again.

Cheers

Kim

[QUOTE=Pwoolson] While I alway strive for perfection, I know for a fact that I'll never get there. But, for me anyway, I have to start every guitar with the attitude of "this one is going to be perfect" and keep reminding myself of that throughout the build. Otherwise, I think I'd let mistakes go and they would pile up and the build wouldn't even be good.
It's a good challenge to strive for perfection. I'm really hard on myself and if I can simply say, "I'm happy with this one", I think that's a pretty good guitar.[/QUOTE]

I know I won't ever get there. It is so difficult to make it thru the entire process without a ding, a missed miter, a spit in the gun, a slip of the fret file, and on and on.

The little mahogany guitar you had at the jam was pretty close. To get a whole lot closer to perfect than that one is really not necessary in my opinion. Trust me, I looked it over pretty good.

If I needed a small body, all mahogany, finger style guitar, without a sunburst, built by a northerner, I would have serious G.A.S. for that one.

In the guitar I'm building - for myself - perfection isn't even on my radar.
It's not something I care about, and aesthetically have a distaste for. I
don't believe a flawless thing is reflective of reality. There's a gap in my
rosette that I wish weren't there, but I'm satisfied. I strive for satisfaction
in what I do.

What happens if something gets a ding? When things like that happen
and the response we'd have is that something just lost it's supposed
perfection, it's a shame, because it presumes – or we presume – that we
really understand all there is to understand about the thing in the time
we've already had with it. This is a bit philosophical, yeah, but it seems
that over time as I look at things I've made, they take on a deeper
meaning than the instance. They begin to represent a place, a moment, a
time; and inherent in that is a bigger kind of truth than a flawless
execution.

I have a mirror I made for my dad in seventh grade. There's no symetry,
the lines aren't straight, and the stain is splotchy. The note I wrote on the
back has some grammatical errors (pronoun agreement).

So I'm more interested in veracity than in something without a mistake.
That's much more attractive and appealing to me. I have to speek
broadly because I haven't finished the guitar I'm making.

Have been guilty of becoming invested as if it where possible to breathe life into a dulcimer, reaching for the mojo, hearing a sound and trying to build it.

It has also been fun to throw a few together, some by rippin Home Depot oak & hemlock base or WRC.

It is hard to take yourself to seriously when you are trying to intuit how different tone faerie like their homes built. K.O.39045.7769328704

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"It's a Tone Faerie thing"
"Da goal is to sharpen ur wit as well as ye Sgian Dubh"
"Sippin Loch Dhu @Black lake" ,Kirby O...

I believe it is the Amish craftsman who purposely instills a flaw into each
creation as his belief is only God can create something perfect.

Perfection is nice to strive for, just be willing to accept that we all fall short.

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Christopher C. Cordle
North Muskegon, MI

http://www.yardsaleunderwear.com
http://www.facebook.com/christopher.cordle

[QUOTE=uncleshish] I believe it is the Amish craftsman who purposely instills a flaw into each
creation as his belief is only God can create something perfect.
[/QUOTE]

I believe that Islamic craftsmen that believe that.

ColinColin S39045.7316550926

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

uncleshish,
    That is an Amish tradition among fine craftsmen, like furniture and
cabinaet makers. You'll see it posted in their shops sometimes in some
quaint poetic verse, but those flaws are so minute and meaningless that
untrained eyes may never spot them.

    We used to frequent the Amish farms in and around the Lancaster area
when I was buying woods from a very friendly guy who was in his 90s at
the time. He had built beautiful cabinets for all of the Amish
homebuilders for decades, but had branched out into importing and
sawing great woods from all over the world out of his love for seeing and
beng able to work with it.

   When he passed away, we were able to attend his memorial services
where long lines of people came to his small home with stories of how
they'd become friends through doing business with him.

    Those flaws were present in every piece of work he'd ever done, but all
he'd done it for still loved his work and came back time and time again to
have him do more.

    It was a great testiment to the depth of the relationships that we can
enjoy as a result of doing business with one another, being fair and
honest, and being humble as we create the things that we do....which, in
our case are guitars.

Regards,
Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars

I strive to someday understand every unconscious flaw that I instill into each instrument I build.

Perfection is when my nephew picks up and plays my latest build and asks, "why is this so loud?".
Or maybe that’s Priceless.

Wade

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Wade
Nashua, NH
http://www.wadefx.com

Well, here's the way i see it if you dare to read it!

I am always humbled when building a guitar, i see it as a gift and i feel like a blessed child and always think that my hands are guided and if perfection there is, it won't be mine, being thankful for the results at the end.

I'm really enjoying everyones thoughts on this subject. The ideas of
sanding kerfing and being guided by the muse of perfection reminded me
of this story.
The owners of a home I was working on wanted their cabinets built by an
old craftman who was know for these wonderful and intricit carvings he
did on drawer fronts, but the wife didn't think they would match the rest
of the kicthen. She asked if he would leave the fronts plain. When he was
finished the family found he had indeed left the fronts plain, but had
done his carving on the inside of one of the drawers. What's interesting
is that they show everyone who visits their home the drawer with the
carving! -   Much of our efforts to reach perfection we do for our own
satisfaction... but it's nice when others notice.

thanks
long

Bob Long39045.8124421296

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"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.” -Heraclitus of Ephesus

[QUOTE=uncleshish] I believe it is the Amish craftsman who purposely instills a flaw into each
creation as his belief is only God can create something perfect.

Perfection is nice to strive for, just be willing to accept that we all fall short.[/QUOTE]

That's it then! I MUST be....AMISH! I read a quote from Bob Taylor once, where he told a big-shot banker representative or someone of the sort, "out of 100 guitars that Taylor produces we have maybe 3 that are exceptional......the other 97 are PERFECT!" (Now, no ugly letters back to me...I'm just quoting the man!).

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http://www.presnallguitars.com